This question is not meant to be offensive and should not be taken as such. It is merely a serious attempt to reconcile these two seemingly conflicting beliefs:
Most Christian denominations preach that humans possess free will, yet at the same time preach eternal damnation for disbelief and many other transgressions.
According to Webster’s Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language "Free will" is defined as:
"1. free and independent choice; voluntary decision" &
"2. the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces"
According to the same dictionary "Eternal" is defined as:
"1. without beginning or end; lasing forever; always existing" &
"2. perpetual; ceaseless; endless"
and "Damnation" is defined theologically as:
"3. condemnation to eternal punishment as a consequence of sin"
These two ideas: "free will" and "eternal damnation" seem completely at odds with one another. Free will is voluntary, but the promise of eternal damnation is severe coercion. It compels one into behaving in an involuntary way via intimidation. When one is presented with the "choice" between behaving/thinking in a particular way on the one hand, and intolerable emotional and/or physical punishment that lasts forever and ever without end on the other, then the entire concept of choice is taken out of the equation. One is unable to exercise free will under such a condition simply out of self preservation. No sane person would want to endure interminable, unbearable punishment. So there would actually be no room for the exercise of free will in such a situation. One’s freedom to choose would be circumvented by the innate deisre to avoid such horrible consequences. In such a case as eternal damnation by God for disbelief or sin, one’s decision would be "determined by a divine force" and thus the antithesis of free will (see "free will" definition 2 above).
Of course anyone may respond to this question - nonbelievers and believers in any religion alike. I only ask that the responses be thoughtful and serious. No rants please. I have based my question and my expansion upon this question on reason, logic, and rational thought. I respectfully ask that any and all respodents do the same.
Once again, please be sure to have read everything above before answering. Thank you.
A couple of good questions,many lacking any semblance of logic or reason,some that simply attacked me, and some that made not the slightest hint of sense.Abby’s answer was at least in earnest and didn’t question my logic, scolarship or reason (and she didn’t call me stupid!).
Dave, you quite obviously didn’t get my point at all.I suggest you re-read my argument about the incompatibilty between free will and the Christian belief in eternal damnation.If you still don’t get it, don’t worry. I’m guessing that you are fairly young and reason and logic tend to develope over time.And I am in know way arguing for predestination.Hovever, there is the possibility that we do not truly possess free will.We know very little about the intricate working of the brain.Who knows when a minor malfunction occurs (mabey hundreds of resons) and thus overrides what we think of as free will.I think, as do many philosophers that we have only the illusion of free will.Oh and Biblical quotes mean nothing to me.
Not to mention the fact that there people in physiological conditions that may make them prone to violence, and in turn "sin". It’s all hogwash.
Craig T | Feb 26, 2009
well if you put your question in another context for example a murderer may know if he murders someone he will most likely go to jail for most of his life. However, the murderer still has a choice whether or not he kills this person even though the outcome may be terrible
Hope this helped 
randomer | Feb 26, 2009
I lost interest after "this question is not meant to be offensive", nice rant, anyhow…
why God allowed the invention of automobile, it claims 37,000 lives per year in US alone ?
listless | Feb 26, 2009
You are missing its opposite, eternal life, we choose between them.
Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.
And now, I would that ye should look to the great Mediator, and hearken unto his great commandments; and be faithful unto his words, and choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit;
And not choose eternal death, according to the will of the flesh and the evil which is therein, which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate, to bring you down to hell, that he may reign over you in his own kingdom.
Light and Truth | Feb 26, 2009
you forgot God’s eternal forgiveness and love
Meep | Feb 26, 2009
Free will does not override the effects of our actions. I have free will to jump out the window of my ninth floor office. On the other hand, I do not have free will to jump out of a ninth floor window and float gently to the ground unharmed.
I think I know what you are saying - is is really free will if we are coerced with eternal damnation?
I say we a have free will but, of course, our decisions are molded by many factors including religion, the law, morals, local customs etc. etc.
I a just glad you did not ask about free will versus God’s omnipotence, that one has been beaten to death.
Adoptive Father | Feb 26, 2009
A dictionary is a repository of popular usage not of technical precision.
So, you would believe in free will if there were no damnation ? That doesn’t make any sense as the Greek philosophers most certainly believed in it on independent grounds. That is stupid.
Damnation is a moral concept not a coercion concept.
Book of Sirach
"Like a eunuch lusting for intimacy with a maiden is he who does right under compulsion."
Doing good under compulsion is scorned in Judaism and Christianity, not to mention those philosophers.
You just don’t have a coherent view of things. Forget whether you are right or wrong…where is the connection between free will and damnation…It can only be in your idea of what God is like. He is said to be — and is, in Jesus, the revelation of God — just and merciful.
We don’t know who goes to Hell, but if God is as He says, it isn’t a problem. And if He isn’t, why accept Hell in the Bible and reject the rest. Stick with free will and ditch the rest.
"IF you believe what you want in the Gospel and disbelieve what you want. You believe in yourself rather than in the Gospel."
Against Faustus, 17, 3, 400 A.D. — St Augustine
SanJoseHope-asaurus | Feb 26, 2009
the religious people of the world believe that with their last dying breath they can save their ass by asking for forgiveness of all their sins, that’s their "choice" come on, timothy mcvee is saved and in heaven according to them. i’d like to add that the religious people also believe they will go to hell if they don’t save your soul, so hell will be full of religious people.
robert r | Feb 26, 2009
God has told us or rather warned us that there is a day coming when He will separate Good from Evil. He has given us the privilege and the responsibility to choose Good or Evil. God has given us an instruction book by which we will be judged and our lifelong desires will be honored by God. How unjust it would be for God to force one to be in Heaven when their entire lives were lived in refusal of what God desires.
G C | Feb 26, 2009
I have free will. I choose to believe and try to follow Jesus. I stumble and fall but I always try to have my eye on God. The more I know Him the more I love Him.
You use your free will to not believe. You rationalize that decision. But like most atheists, hell seems to bother you. I believe you do know the truth and choose to deny it.
We both have free will.
Oli | Feb 26, 2009
You got them there. They like to say things like "Eternal love and forgiveness", but where is that in "eternal damnation"?
phil8656 | Feb 26, 2009
ok, so this is what you are saying….
- God tells us what the punishment for sin is.
-any sane person wouldn’t want that punishment.
-therefore we do not chose whether or not to sin.
(please tell me if i misunderstood what you were saying)
if i understood you correctly then that’s really bad logic…
Dave | Feb 26, 2009
Ok, let’s try this on for size:
I hold a bowling ball in my hand. I am holding it by my own free will. I may use that free will to decide to drop it. It may then fall on my big toe, at which point I will shout "Damnation" or other words R&S would disapprove of. The pain may be considered "severe coercion." I choose to consider it as A Real Good Reason to not drop the ball.
To be slightly less facetious: I now set off metal detectors because of what they put in my heart just before Christmas. I still may exercise free will and smoke my beloved cigars, cigarettes and pipes, and I may still choose to eat the same things I used to eat.
But the words of Deuteronomy 30:19 still apply: "… I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life…"
Tolstoyevsky | Feb 26, 2009
Respected question and a genuine logical debate persists on this issue.The standard issue response says you have free will to choose God on earth and suffer the consequences in the after-life for that decision.It appears to be a question of faith.Will I choose to believe this based on this evidence or will I choose not to believe this for whatever reason.Tough question to answer.Where does pre-destination fall in the debate as well?
Friend | Feb 26, 2009
JESUS taught , There is no free will, period. He declared the end from the beginning Hell is not a place of torment , it is a place of no truth, no light, no GOD. Many so-called believers will go to this place . A realm of no GOD , that would torment me. & probably most if not all its occupants. There will be those who claim I will not go to hell, but by my will I will go to heaven. Good luck to all believers of free will.
3'9's-3'6's=1GOD | Feb 26, 2009
Free will involves consequences whereas coercion involves a usurping of the free will and the consequences lie with the one doing the coercion not with the coerced. Now if one looks at free will in the absence of a Just and Holy God, the consequences are only in the present life. And if one believes there is no God, then life ends at death.
God says He created us and that He created us because He loved us before we loved Him and that all He wants from us is our love. So, if God is Holy and Just, He must by His nature reward love and punish disobedience just as our parents here on earth do or did. However, God is eternal and if we are to be with Him, we can only be with Him because we love Him and in loving Him, we obey Him and are rewarded. Our reward is not only His riches but eternal life and a new body. Sin is a temptation, it isn’t a condition in the sense that one can take medication for it. A child disobeys the parent because it thinks the parent won’t know or find out but the child knows that if the parent knows, there’s a price to pay. Eternal damnation (separation from God eternally) is the price of unrepented sin and disbelief in the One who created us.
Jimbo | Feb 26, 2009
If we don’t have free will, then answer me this.
Did God make you ask that question.
We have free will to do want we want to in this life.
God doesn’t make someone kill, or rape or cuss, or do drugs, or even go to Heaven.
There is plenty of room for free will, you say no rational person would endure hell, are you saying atheist are irrational?
LOL I agree
we have free will to jump off of a building or realize it’s stupid.
same concept with hell.
Jaime M | Feb 26, 2009
"When one is presented with the "choice" between behaving/thinking in a particular way on the one hand, and intolerable emotional and/or physical punishment that lasts forever and ever without end on the other, then the entire concept of choice is taken out of the equation."
Why - it’s still a choice. Humans always hang themselves with new rope all the time. Small regrets or large regrets - humans carry huge burdens daily. What you miss is that GOD forgives our sin, completely, if we are truly sorry. Humans can’t do this, although many try. (We remember and hold someone less trustworthy than others.)
"One’s freedom to choose would be circumvented by the innate deisre to avoid such horrible consequences." Children always burn themselves on the stove after their mother tells them it’s hot - why- because they freely choose to ignore the reality and think they will not be burned, adults do this all the time. Then the mother strictly disciplines and sooths the pain - at the same time. As GOD will do.
IF one follows the commandments one usually doesn’t worry about free will, because they are already freely following the commandments.
Being an adult means taking responsibility for ones actions. IF I choose to not sin - I better have a damn good reason to change my will.
Moderation in almost all things2 | Feb 26, 2009
Free will, or free choice is important in salvation. If one has free choice, each individual can choose to accept or reject the gift of salvation.
Eternal damnation is the consequence for not obeying God’s law, muck like being grounded is the consequence for children not obeying their parents.
So we must make the choice of either being obedient now (obeying God) and rewarded later (in Heaven) or being disobedient (rejecting God) and "rewarded" now by pleasures of sin and being punished by eternal damnation in Hell.
Are short term pleasures worth ETERNAL damnation? How long is eternity? The life on this Earth is such a blink of an eye when placed next to the millennia our souls will live after.
We’re in the Creator’s ballpark, He’s not in ours. The game is played according to His rules.
It's so clear now! | Feb 26, 2009
You are putting forward a minimalist argument. You want heaven on your terms without GOD. It not like choosing a vacation or a retirement home.
GOD has made a plan…it is called the plan of Salvation. Those who accept it will be with GOD. Those who reject it will be separated from Him. As we have spirits and they are eternal, than we exist eternally. We will live eternally in spirit form.
The only remaining question is where? with GOD or alone.
The question hinges on this question alone. If you don’t believe in GOD or don’t want to be with Him, He will honour your choice.
If you accept His plan you will be with Him eternally.
It’s your choice. The circumstances and outcome are secondary to the primary proposition.
GOD is seeking a people for Himself, if you don’t want to be included in that number then that is your free will choice. Your destiny and destination are determined by this choice, you don’t have to believe it, for it to be true.
Choose wisely.
wynner01 | Feb 26, 2009
I like it that you have thought out your question well and expressed it clearly.
Here are some things for you to consider.
We can see empirically that even though there is a reward/punishment factor to be considered in our free will, it has had little effect on most people. Because we also have desires and the lure of instant gratification that counter our spiritual reasoning and long-term (eternal) planning.
Jesus tells His Apostles in Matthew 7 to expect that there will be few that find the gate to heaven. Note: there is "finding" involved. We control if we want to find God. Also note that the path is difficult. Even though we ultimately know there will be a reward "in the end," we will have many people working against us as well as our own desires. Just look at this forum (R&S) as an example — there are many people that could care less about peoples’ spirituality and seeking God, but instead try to tear them down, making their own poor lives seem better. Furthermore, sin itself is a very powerful lure.
Furthermore, out of the few that decide to follow God, many of them will try to do it according to THEIR beliefs rather than God’s will (Matthew 7:21 ….). They trust their own logic & reasoning more than they trust God’s. In the end there will be very few that will actually enter heaven EVEN THOUGH EVERYONE HAD FREE WILL TO CHOOSE THEIR OWN ETERNAL DESTINY, BASED ON HOW THEY LIVE THEIR LIVES NOW (the all-caps are to stress the irony).
So now back to your question. Just because there is strict punishment guaranteed, it has had and will continue to have very little influence on MOST people. Sad but true.
Good luck. Think about it. Research & study it. Figure it out.
Figure it out! | Feb 26, 2009
This is by far one of the best, most interesting questions I have ever read.
I am currently reading the book "23 Minutes In Hell" by Bill Wiese. I started it last night around 8pm b/c I’ve been sick so I’ve been going to bed like early as…I was going to say hell but I realized another point in the book about us using the word hell so casually, and I’m more than halfway through the book even though I’ve been at school (Yup, I got in trouble like 5-6 times about reading in class, lol). Now I feel bad for saying "hell" or even thinking it….
Sorry, got carried away on stupid stuff how I ALWAYS do. I’ll be talking (or in this case typing) about one thing then I slowly drift off into another subject.
Well, it said about how God loves us soooo incredibly much and Him telling us about hell is not like a threat like "I’m gonna damn you to hell if you screw up!" and he used a good scenario, I guess the word is, of how a dad tells us not to play in the street. The dad can’t tie us down worrying that we’re gonna go play in the street, our parents
are going to plead with us not to play in the street, but if we make that decision.
So that, in my opinion, was a good scenario or whatever the word is, lol (What’s with me and "lol"-ing?– gosh, makes me look like a snobby tween). And you’re right– like "Wow, I wonder which one I’m gonna choose, hell or obey the church folk against my will?" if people believe in hell.
I’m not a Christian against my will, but I’m sure some people feel that way.
I really recommend the book to EVERYONE. My friend wanted me to tell her what was happening in the book currently, but I could tell by looking into her eyes that she didn’t believe a word I was saying and we were in an arguement yesterday b/c she called me ignorant so I’m not so hesitant to be kinda rude so I flat out said "I can see it in your eyes, you don’t believe me." and she said "Nope". And I’m not very gullible, but this is convincing to me, I just feel like he’s telling the truth, even though I’m sure not a lot of people will. Gosh, Tyra’s been a b***** lately…Once again, drifting on to other subjects. Shoot, I hope she doesn’t see this….
She called me crazy today (in a rude way, she said it b/c I told Dillon he was eating fiery gremlin turds b/c that’s what it looked like ever since the roach on the tray incident so she told me gremlins don’t exist ever so sarcastically and so I told her I know that and she said "Oh, well, if you did, you’d be retarted") Sorry about that.
Do I have a.d.d or something b/c I keep drifting on to other subjects, I’m sorry.
So, it was a really good point that like God is pleading with us b/c He loves us soooo much and that hell was supposed to be a place for satan (I’m really scared to capitalize the "s" in satan, lol) and his fallen angels, but b/c we sin, God gave Jesus as a sacrafice for our sins. And He wants us so badly to take Jesus as our Savior.
And God had sent Bill Wiese there and then took Him out of Bill’s mind b/c then he wouldn’t be so afraid, and He wanted Bill to fear it to know and be able to understand how those who are tormented in hell feel, but then answered Bill’s questions when He came to hell and told Bill to tell them what he had experienced. It is an AMAZING book, and it probably sounds like noise, and I’m sorry if I’m preaching, but I think you’d like the book too, even if you don’t believe it, it could be a good horror book I guess? It’s the same guy that made the video in which you answered the question and that’s why Tyra called my ignorant, so you probably agree and also it’s probably a little dissuading to read it now.
I’m sorry if I went all preacher-ish today, even a little, but the question reminded me of the scenario and that’s I guess what they mean by free will, Hope it helps(:
-Abby(:
Myself
